Nikita, ganz herzlichen Glückwunsch zu Deinem Geburtstag auch von unserer Seite. Warum ist gerade jetzt, in Krisenzeiten, eine Spendenaktion für PROUT AT WORK so wichtig?

Die Antwort auf Krisen liegt im Miteinander – gerade aufgrund der räumlichen Distanz, die wir im Alltag erfahren, ist es umso wichtiger, dass wir als Gemeinschaft näher rücken. Dies trifft natürlich auch auf unsere Arbeitswelten zu. Eins ist klar, wir werden alle in der Zukunft anders zusammenarbeiten und dafür setzt sich die Stiftung unermüdlich ein: Für eine Arbeitswelt, die für mehr Vielfalt und Inklusion steht – losgelöst von sexueller Orientierung, Herkunft, Religion und Identität.

Was ist für Dich als Person der Mehrwert von PROUT AT WORK?

Ohne die langjährige Unterstützung von PROUT AT WORK, wäre METROPride, unser Netzwerk für LGBT+ Mitarbeiter_innen und –Allies, nicht da wo es heute steht. Die zahlreichen Formate, die PROUT anbietet – von Ratgebern über Sensibilisierungsschulungen für alle Ebenen im Unternehmen bis zur wichtigen Vernetzung mit anderen Unternehmensnetzwerken, Poltiker_innen und Verbänden – haben es uns  ermöglicht, das Thema LGBT+-Diversity innerhalb der METRO nachhaltig zu verankern und stetig auszubauen.

Was kann jede_r einzelne machen, dass PROUT AT WORK und ihr Stiftungszweck weiterkommt?

Jede_r kann die analogen und digitalen Angebote von PROUT AT WORK nutzen und für den diskriminierungsfreien Arbeitsplatz und mehr Vielfalt in ihrem_seinem Unternehmen werben. Gerade jetzt, in einer Zeit, wo viel Konversation nur noch über den digitalen Weg stattfindet, ist ein wertschätzendes Umfeld und Achtsamkeit wichtiger denn je. Um den Dialog zu fördern und für diese Themen zu sensibilisieren, ist die Stiftung auf jegliche Unterstützung angewiesen.

Vielen Dank Dir für Deine Zeit und die Idee auf Facebook!

You refer to yourself as “divers” (non-binary). What experiences have you had at Bosch with this identity?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: DIVERSITY has been an important topic at Bosch for some years now. I have always liked the term “divers” very much because I have intersex as well as transgender-androgynous and bigender characteristics, and “divers” covers all of them. The change in the law creating the third gender option in Germany has really pushed things forward simultaneously for Bosch and for me. This year, we started to take many diverse steps together and to have lively discussions – a win-win situation for all of us. Sometimes, I jokingly refer to myself as “Bosch’s token non-binary person”. The feedback from my colleagues at the office was cautiously positive, and I got a lot of respect for being open about my gender. There was also a bit of confusion, in particular due to my two additional first names Séline and Nica. If I brought up this subject myself, the question I heard most frequently was: “Can I still call you Nils?” – which I’m OK with.

What does it mean to you to be an intersex person in our society?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: It means belonging to a tabooed minority that is largely invisible. Sometimes I feel like we’re aliens from a Science Fiction movie: “So people like that actually exist?” “Yes, they do!!” Noticing that someone has both typically female and typically male characteristics, or finding out more details about this, or even realising that someone doesn’t fit into any traditional category, makes many people uneasy. It doesn’t match the binary view of the world that is instilled in us. It takes a lot of patience and stamina to overcome this hurdle.

When did you come out in your workplace? And what challenges did this pose at your company and with your colleagues?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: I began to come out at Bosch during a telephone call with Olaf Schreiber – the spokesperson for the company’s LGBTIQ network RBg – and then in a telephone call about the “third gender option” with Anja Hormann from the central Bosch Diversity Team. After that, I gradually informed my direct colleagues at the office, my carpool group, my supervisor and the local HR department. A wonderful video made by colleagues for colleagues on IDAHOBIT inspired me to have my first name changed to Nils_Séline in the internal company address book. It is written with the so-called “Gender_Gap” to visualise the gender continuum between male and female. I dedicated my first blog entry in the internal network to this subject and sometimes I was moved to tears by the approval I received from all over the world. On Diversity Day, our office organised a Diversity Business Lunch which I attended and where I was able to talk about non-binary gender aspects with those present. Generally, I was pleasantly surprised at how much good will and appreciation were shown to me at all levels. However, the biggest challenge is, and continues to be, plucking up the courage to speak openly to others. Not to mention the IT side, where the only options you have in many areas are male and female.

What advice would you give to intersex people planning to come out?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Take it slowly – small steps are best, so give yourself time. Coming out as an intersex person requires a great deal of care and courage. Things can quickly take a wrong turn. I recommend beginning with people who are not quite so close to you. After a bit of practice, you’ll find it easier to talk to your family and close friends. And get in touch with LGBTIQ allies – they’re open-minded and make very good listeners. Talking to allies will make you feel better and boost your self-confidence.

What are your hopes with regard to the visibility of intersex per­sons in particular and the LGBTIQ Community in general at your company?

Nils_Séline “Nica” Schächtele: Let’s be as courageous as possible. Intersexuality is still a big taboo topic. In many places, we as a society have yet to take a clear stand against hastily begun hormonal treatment or surgery which is not medically necessary. The few who are open about their identity are inundated with letters and requests from all sides. But there are other important topics, too. That’s why I’d like to see many people – in particular many allies – spread the message that the human body doesn’t just develop into a man or a woman and that gender actually covers a broad spectrum. I’d like this to be matched by a more relaxed approach – as if you’re talking about the weather or what you’re going to cook for dinner. I experienced this on Stuttgart’s commuter trains recently and it worked really well. As regards our LGBTIQ Community at Bosch, I hope that many people will join us in the years to come, the proportion of allies will grow steadily, and gender diversity will gain an even higher profile. This applies to intersex, transgender and queer identities topics of any kind.

Ms Halfas, METRO AG is clearly a very active PROUT EMPLOYER. In what specific ways does METRO champion more equal opportunities for LGBT*IQ people?

Laura Halfas: METRO was one of the first wholesalers to sign the UN Free and Equal Standards of Conduct for Business, which ensure that all employees are “free and equal”. We also have METRO Pride, a very strong internal network. This year, the Diversity & Inclusion Days took place for the first time at our campus in Dusseldorf to spark our employees’ interest in the topic of diversity. And METRO was again represented at Sticks & Stones in 2019, the largest LGBT+ careers fair in Europe.

Which initiatives are you personally particularly proud of?

Laura Halfas: We at METRO initiated a position paper on the issue of blood donation because the guidelines are discriminatory. For example, homosexual men are generally assumed to engage in risky behaviour irrespective of their actual sexual behaviour and their life situation. It would be great if, together with PROUT AT WORK, we could achieve a position paper that was adopted by German businesses. That’s why I would again like to take the opportunity to invite businesses to participate in this initiative.

As Head of Corporate Responsibility, it is your duty to ensure that METRO AG fulfils its corporate responsibility for the environment and society. In your view, what responsibility do businesses have when it comes to equal opportunities for LGBTIQ people?

Laura Halfas: We are a people business and we work with people throughout our entire value chain. As a global company with more than 150,000 employees in 36 countries, it’s our duty to ensure that all people are treated equally and not discriminated against – be they METRO employees, service partners, suppliers or customers.

In what specific areas are you hoping for support from PROUT AT WORK?

Laura Halfas: I and a lot of my colleagues appreciate the networking and dialogue with PROUT AT WORK. The foundation has considerable experience and know-how. For example, it constantly provides us with new impetus to drive forward cultural change within METRO and make our jobs even more open and less susceptible to discrimination. What’s more, our activities are becoming visible outside the company. And as I said, our motto when it comes to the position paper on blood donation is: together we can do it!

You immediately agreed to an interview with us – thank you again! To what extent are equal opportunities for LGBTIQ people an issue that is close to your heart?

Laura Halfas: Working for equal rights is what drives me. At first, I only focused on gender equality, but then I realised that there are many areas in which there is no equality. My goal is that in ten years we no longer have to talk about diversity and inclusion because both of these things have simply become part of life – in all areas of society. However, there are still many areas in which LGBT+ issues need to be addressed. People are still being discriminated against. I want to change this. Everyone should have the opportunity to be who they are.

Ms Halfas, many thanks for talking to us!

You’re a very young network – only founded in 2019. Tell us how your initial idea led to the network being formed and how the first activities came about.

Ingo Bertram: The Otto Group has long been a supporter of diversity – explicitly including LGBTIQ. A good example of this is our cooperation with Hamburg Pride, which started in 2017. Nevertheless, the Group had no official structure that specifically allowed LGBTIQ people to join together and that promoted queer topics and coordinated activities. Nor was there a central voice representing the interests of our queer colleagues. This is precisely why in May 2019 we established MORE*, a queer network in the Otto Group. At the end of July, to coincide with Hamburg Pride Week, we officially launched the network – and the first thing we did was turn the OTTO campus into a sea of rainbows, including a rainbow zebra crossing and a huge rainbow cake, through a range of activities. Incidentally, the zebra crossing is now a permanent feature on our campus, as is the rainbow flag in front of our main entrance. The cake, however, was gone within two hours!

Which challenges did you face? Where did you get support from?

Ingo Bertram: Right from the time we established the network, we received a delightful amount of encouragement and support, not only from direct colleagues, but explicitly also from the highest management levels. I sometimes had the impression that many people were merely waiting for a queer network to finally be launched. Ultimately, our biggest challenge was therefore not only to officially establish the network within a few weeks, but also to organise a launch that met our own high standards – and to do all this without neglecting our main jobs. I was blown away by the fact that we had already got more than 150 MORE* supporters within 48 hours of the official launch on 29 July.

With Gesa Heinrichs as Executive Sponsor, you have an enormously committed person on board. To what extent does this help you in your work?

Ingo Bertram: Whether MORE* will be a lasting success in the Otto Group depends primarily on how deeply we can anchor our vision in the group and in the mindset of our staff. A prerequisite for this is that we can motivate as many colleagues as possible to help shape the work of our network proactively and drive forward ideas. Of course, it’s helpful for MORE* to also have committed members and supporters at higher management levels, such as Gesa Heinrichs or our patron Katy Roewer, the member of OTTO’s management board with responsibility for Service & HR. This gives us better access to top management and can make coordination easier. What is ultimately decisive, though, is that our ideas, visions and wishes take hold within the company, irrespective of any hierarchies. And for this goal we need every single person.

Why is supporting LGBT*IQ people a matter that is close to your heart?

Ingo Bertram: I’d like to answer this question both from a personal view and from the perspective of society as a whole. Speaking personally, the answer is obvious because – just like many other initiators and supporters of MORE* – I am queer myself and naturally I want to work in a company that treats its employees equally without reservation, regardless of gender, religion, skin colour or sexual identity. However, this always works best when there are people in a company who are committed to diversity and set a good example. This is precisely what we want to do with MORE*.

On the other hand, what’s at least as important to me is the appeal such a commitment can have beyond one’s own job. In Germany and in many other countries, we are experiencing a partial rollback of society. Right-wing populist ideas are gaining influence, mostly at the expense of minorities, and these include not only refugees, Muslims or Jews, but also queer people. I can’t and won’t stand by and watch this happen, either in my personal life or at work, and this is how many others here feel, too. I am convinced that in this discourse, companies have a growing social responsibility and must actively take a stand in favour of diversity. That’s why for me, MORE* is a very clear signal to the outside world – a signal that shows that in the Otto Group we will not surrender to this rollback and will continue to be a liberal-minded, tolerant corporate group of many colours.

What are the next steps, and what are your wishes and goals for the network?

Ingo Bertram: Globally, more than 50,000 people work for the Otto Group. The biggest challenge and thus the most important goal for us will be to reach as many of these people as possible. This sounds trivial at first, but it isn’t. In the coming months, we will therefore begin by redoubling our efforts to build up an internal network between our more than 120 group companies, both digitally and using regular dialogue formats. At the same time, we want to promote awareness of queer topics internally in various areas, whether it’s in marketing and purchasing, in our online shop teams or in the recruiting process. I think we’re already on the right track.

Many thanks for talking to us, Ingo!